Ben's argument was:
"if yoga is the standard for eight then stuff is def not graded right"
Anon (Tyler?) responded with this:
"You guys have to keep in mind that the more you climb, the stronger you are going to get...not that boulder problems need to be downgraded as a result of increased climbing abilities. I have climbed all over the world and the grades at 9 seem to be pretty accurate. In most cases, you will here people on their first visit spraying that everything has been sandbagged at 9. Ben...I recall you also thinking that boxcar arete should be downgraded because you did it easily...but remember that the V-grade comes from a climbing consenses and do you have any idea how many people think Boxcar Arete is in fact a V8? Enjoy the climbing you get in and try to forget about the number game once and a while. You might enjoy it more that way!"Amen.
If we continue to simply downgrade whenever we break through to that next grade, whatever it may be, we will not progress. When I first sat down under Thorazine, I couldn't move off the start holds. The problem felt as if it would only remain in my dreams, or in the ticklists of my much stronger friends. This will always be fact. Although I have progressed in my strength as a climber, the difficulty of the problem never changed. It was still the same boulder I had sat beneath and wondered how it was even possible to perform such a feat, I had just gotten stronger.
Obviously a lot of my psyche from sending Thorazine stems from the grade, but more of it comes from the amount of time I put in on the problem and the quality of the line.
Many, many other people have climbed Thorazine, and there hasn't been any significant talk of down-grading before. The consesus is that the grade V8 suits the problem well, and it should not be changed.
Feel free to tell me I am completely wrong.
-WB
first off u havent climbed all over the world wtf, thats bs, second someone such as me or more so murph who helped establish these lines origianlly thought they were soft, u seem pissed that shit is getting downgraded when it should be if u havent climbed yoga how can u say what the standard is since yoga is def harder by a lot then thorzine or froggy, no way is froggy v9 its just not
ReplyDeleteyou also said "that the V-grade comes from a climbing consenses" not true for nine or many other places it comes from the original setters and only after many people climb it can there be a consenses, so it stands only after more poeple try it can something true grade come out.
ReplyDeletegotta rephrase my first argument, i haven't developed any of nine, murph was on the ground level originally they thought Thorazine could be a v7, also guessing it tyler who has climbed all over the world so yea u have, but places grade dif so something has to be the standard, also the comment about the grade why would u care if we downgraded it also ive climbed most of the stuff in nine just to climb it not because its grade recently, so if grades dont matter let it get downgraded
ReplyDeletefinal note ur talking bout boxcar originally was nine then after more people climbed on it went down to a eight, so isnt that the same thing for thorzine?
ReplyDeleteben is correct. if the climbers that have been climbing harder, and have sent a multitude of v8's in various areas and regions agree that it should be downgraded, then it should be seriously considered as a problem that may be a soft 8 or even a 7 officially.
ReplyDeleteI'm going to second ben on this one. ben definitely has been climbing stuff at nine not just for the grade. he got on crowning achievement just to climb a cool line. also someone who has climbed more stuff at nine should have a more informed opinion of what problems should be graded.
ReplyDeleteI never accused Ben of climbing just for the grade.
ReplyDeleteBut I do agree that Ben does have some authority as he has climbed nearly everything of value at Nine.
And Ben, the V-Grade is based on consensus, you explained it yourself. Although a grade is assigned right when a problem is climbed, the true grade is decided by the consensus of people climbing it.
"Enjoy the climbing you get in and try to forget about the number game once and a while. You might enjoy it more that way", thanks for the advice love it when others tell u how to best have fun climbing, really a interesting insight that u feel you've found the best way to have fun while climbing. For me by the way when a move is at its hardest all i can concentrate is on that move nothing else thats why i climb for that moment, bit dumb but everyone has their own reason
ReplyDeleteI think it's hard to say: I don't let grades dictate my climbing. Even the most non-grade-dependent climber still makes decisions on what to climb based on difficulty (if you climb V5, you're not going to pass up a quality V4 for a V0) But I don't climb just for grades, I climb because I like the social aspect, the feeling of success at the top of a hard boulder, and the amount of focus you get when you're trying your hardest and nothing else is on your mind.
ReplyDeletehey guys alot of this also has to do with factors like hieght an style of climbing like say one guy absolutely crushes on crimps but will get spit off of slopers others stick to.I love the the fire we cary to the boulders the difference in the feel of stone to plastic when you summon all your power an hold on when you don't know how you are an you move to the next hold. When you scream for power like your pulling it right from the air around you till your fingers bleed an we climb on in defience leaving it all there these boulders are smeared with blood I say we top all of them out at nine mckenzie everywhere the guys that set these lines up I believe that is what they would like to see eny one who has set up a problem climb it make our own fa's I don't think grades or ideas of grades are worth the friendships we have peace out family great job everyone on your sends. IT'S OVER 9,000 THAT CAN'T BE RIGHT.
ReplyDeleteoh i forgot does enyone know what happened to the stash pad that was up at nine I was up there thursday an it is not where it is normaly stashed
ReplyDeletelol no i was wondering also where it got off to man, do u have a new cell number man, who doesnt love arguing, like arguing over grades is mad dumb, but telling someone how to climb or why one should crosses a line
ReplyDeletelol also was wondering where it got off to man, yo did u get a new cell man? but yea me and jp love to arguing over grades def dumb but as soon as someone says something bout how to climb it crosses a line
ReplyDeletein terms of the passage jp sited in the post from tyler
ReplyDeleteKyle that was beautiful.
ReplyDeleteI agree, when I have no idea how I stuck the lip on thor... never had those hold worse.
I just wrote a critical lens essay in school about the quote: "Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from indomitable will." I believe this translates perfectly to climbing.
hey guys no my cell is the same my phone is shit though an does not ring enyone just send me a text the phone will then make noise retarded right.Holy crap this just turned into a chat room lol good to hear u are getting out ben we all have to go out everywhere is game now.see ya very soon guys peace .
ReplyDeletewe need more videos up in this piece
ReplyDeleteWow, finally some comments! Nothing like the subject of grades to stir the pot, my two cents are as followed. Grades are usually the product of the first ascensionist in my experience. Then more people climb the problem, maybe new beta surfaces and a consensus is reached. The first ascensionist is not trump in this case, there needs to be consensus, or the V-system is obsolete Beta and conditions as we all know, can drastically change the grade\difficulty. Also, I do agree that as you get stronger and your rock climbing skills increase, it needs to be taken into account. Clearly problems that where at your limit three years ago are going to feel easier now. Just because you have gotten stronger though doesn’t warrant a down grade. Think about the previous sentence… YOU have gotten Stronger! Absolutely nothing has happened to the boulder problem. Actuality you may not even be that much stronger on return to a problem and it still feels way easier. You may just have increased your rock climbing skills, which in turn will push you way further than trying to pump up those puny forearms poorly designed for holding our whole body on a 1\4 pad edge. There’s one other thing that can help you climb harder. Even make the impossible possible, it’s desire. I owe Ninety Five percent of all my sends to pure desire to get to the top. Not strength or skill just willingness to not let pain or fatigue or conditions or who sent before me or the grade come to mind. Just you and the boulder, get to the top by any means necessary, isn’t that the point? Try hard and good things will happen
ReplyDeletePersonally I use grades as a reference point, not a standard of how I am climbing. I think grades are a good way to push yourself to climb harder but chasing numbers will not make you a better rock climber. If you only try and climb the hard ones, your skill set will suffer vastly. For instance you have climbed five v9’s in the past month and are feeling strong. Then you go to a new area and flail wildly on some v5 with a tricky move. I have spent Nine days on a v9 hundreds of goes for the send. Then on another day spent 30 seconds doing one first try, makes zero sense. Climbing should be fun, every climb, no matter how silly or chossy or lowball it may seem can teach you something. Sometimes the lonely neglected problems have the most to offer. Blah blah blah, I could go on for ten pages breaking down the psychology of why people climb, why I climb, how every problem has something to teach you and so forth. Bottom line, climb for YOU, and you only. If you want to climb for big numbers then do so, if you want to climb for the pure movement and never know a name or grade then so be it. I will spare you the ten pages and get right to the matter at hand.
My take on the Specific issue of the nine corners grades is as followed. Instant yoga was put up as v9. After some ascents and some discussion, I told Jeremy to publish it as v8 in the new guide. I think that is a fair grade and so do others. There has been talk of Thorazine as v7 before the first ascent even. Still the problem was solved and v8 was awarded. Since then, a slew of climbers have had the privilege to top out the amazing line and the consensus seems to be v8. I have heard mutterings here and there of v7 but it seems to be low end v8. I know someone who is So strong and it took him day’s... Froggy sit hasn’t seen many ascents till recently. My personal experience was as follow: end of the day, freezing cold, two go’s later on top and psyched! I have a very hard time believing its v9 or v8 for that matter. More on Froggy sit. I know a really good rock climber that can’t touch it and has done nearly every single boulder problem at nine, I mean all of them, and seriously it’s kind of crazy. This shows you how unreliable grades can be. These are all great lines that should be climbed and untainted but whatever the arbitrary number that is attached to it is. On another quick note, problems I recommend trying regardless of their grades at nine are as followed you won’t be disappointed.
ReplyDeleteSpores Sit: Starts low and climbs amazing moves, tall and proud, stout for grade.v7
Moving mediation: Back side of tower of power, amazing movement, hard as shit v5
Cherokee Challenge: another Jut fa’ took me three days v5 at the time I had climbed 6 grades harder. Jut would of called this thin v3 If I didn’t object so strongly.
Fortress Crack: Easy but intimidating on hard move then your home free, proud!
Murph-
lol sick post very well said love the drama and def agree with this
ReplyDeleteThat guy murph knows who spent days on thorazine is a major gumby.
ReplyDeletethis made me laugh quite hard and entertained me for a bit as I watched smokin' aces on the tele at 2 a.m. And Murph where is spore's sit and fortress crack?
ReplyDeleteand this has been stuck in my head since evan played it in the car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhI7Tjc_RhY
Aaron N.
"Every man alone is sincere. At the entrance of a second person, hypocrisy begins. We parry and fend the approach of our fellow-man by compliments, by gossip, by amusements, by affairs. We cover up our thought from him under a hundred folds." ~Ralph Waldo Emerson
ReplyDeleteThis is why the internet is such an odd place.
You can by all alone and yet completely surrounded.
A.N.
so aaron no opinion on if its cool to try and tell people why to climb?
ReplyDeletelols ben. Congrats everyone on record number of comments.
ReplyDeleteMurph, that was incredibly well put and I know longer feel the need to argue anything about climbing ever again.
I, also, have been incredibly confused as to where SPORES even starts... guidebook is vague... if only there was some OTHER guidebook that was MORE descriptive and with better topos and what not...
Its pointless to tell people why to climb. Its like telling someone why they should love. I don't quite know why I do either and there is a good chance I never will. Just knowing that i want to and sometimes need to is good enough for me. I can't even tell you that, "If you climb for anything but yourself then your wasting a decent bit of your life." because life is another thing I don't understand.
ReplyDeleteA.N.
Aaron Newell is another big thing I don't understand, but I don't question him because I think he's quirky and hilarious in his own crazy little way...
ReplyDelete@slimper pimper
ReplyDeleteI agree completely, but my Flip HD videos are too large to edit on WMM. And I don't have enough RAM to run Premiere or Vegas or any of that. So... I don't know what to do.
Luke got some PHENOMENAL footage of the south, and if I can get some more RAM for my computer I'll edit that together.
There is only one reason to climb...and that is to burn off those around you. If folks are sending when you arrive at a boulder, don't bother unpacking, just keep moving until you find some group that is having difficulty. Scum beta from afar, approach, pull out shoes (optional) and send their proj.
ReplyDeleteFor real, folks. You kidz are getting strong. You're gonna start flashing established V8s and v9s. That's okay. It may be your style and just suit you well. Numbers are just numbers. They help us focus our OWN goals and pursuits and evaluate our OWN skills. Someone else's skill set mey allow them to walk their first or second of the grade. This doesn't mean it needs to be downgraded.
It's all very subjective and the ease or difficulty of a problem is based upon variables like height, comfort level and skill set.
There is no need to downgrade anyone or anything.
duuude. all about the burn-off.
ReplyDeleteI've simplified to V grade system to one of my own, probably popular among many climbers.
ReplyDeleteV-I can climb it and V-I can't climb it.
you can complicate that into V-easy V-normal and V-hard
Then complicate that even further and you start getting into numbers. Numbers are a handy guide but thats all I view em as. Everybody has some really easy problem they can't do but other people flash up and then theres the hard problems that fit your style and you fly up but stump everyone else.
Who's to say you can't send a V13 even though you haven't gotten your 10 11 or 12 yet.
I dunno, my train of thought kinda ends there but I got out what i wanted to say
oop train of thought back, lol. Anyway, why bother to grade something down? Does it really matter if that climb you just did was V8 or V7.
ReplyDeleteMore importantly, did you have fun while climbing it, isn't that what really matters in the end? Take for example The Lorax on the carriage road. It's given a 4 but in my opinion feels more like a 2 or 3 and i've sent it more than probably anything else on the road with the exception of 0's and 1's. I've done that because it's extremely fun for me to climb. At the same time, I've got a friend who hates it, hasn't sent more than once because he thinks its a piece of choss unworthy of climbing.
Throwing in a little quote here,
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
Buddha
and thats pretty much how I take grading. I'll call something whatever it feels like in my head to myself and disregard what it popularly is unless it agrees with my own judgement.
I hate the lorax.
ReplyDelete"Who's to say you can't send a V13 even though you haven't gotten your 10 11 or 12 yet."
Just look at buzz!
I love buzz and the lorax!!!
ReplyDeleteDude, Thorazine was a rad problem v7 or v8, not a big deal really. So that line that goes direct up a crimp above the rail on thorazine/ overburdened (dyno to lip?) Is this still a project or established?
ReplyDeleteWhere are we going this weekend?
Tyler
so who actually wrote that reply to my comment about if yoga should be the standard?
ReplyDeleteTyler, Im gonna have murph give me a tour of nine and show me all the projects and stuff sometime soon. Tag along and find out!
ReplyDeletei will also tag along.
ReplyDeleteA.N.
Soon boys all will be reveled. Maybe this weekend?
ReplyDeleteWhy would someone steal the stash pad that sucks. If anyone sees someone with my old beat up Madrock kick there ass. That pad was up there for years and no one messed with it people suck Pooler
ReplyDelete